UPDATES: Will come at the end of this post. Scroll down if you have zero interest in stuff like how many books I’ve ever sold. I won’t blame you.
Spock: Excuse me, Admiral. But weren’t those a birthday gift from Dr. McCoy?
Kirk: And they will be again, that’s the beauty of it.
[to the Antique Store Owner]
Kirk: How much?
Antique Store Owner: Well, they’d be worth more if the lenses were intact. I’ll give you one hundred dollars for them.
Kirk: [pause] Is that a lot?
(Quick introduction, since I see a few people are being pointed to this: Hi, I’m Elliott Kay. I write military sci-fi and urban fantasy (please heed the warnings!). Everything was initially self-published, though last year Amazon Publishing purchased my two SF books. Here I am on Amazon for quick reference.)
This post is brought to you by a Twitter chat between Annie Bellet, Django Wexler, and myself, although I was a total latecomer/buttinski to said conversation.
We got talking a few weeks ago about how the business of writing is rather opaque and how most writers don’t talk about numbers — sales, income, etc. Nobody ever said to me, “Don’t tell people your numbers,” but I’ve noticed in listening to authors at conventions, readings, etc., that very few of them ever actually drop that kind of information. It really only turns into a quantifiable figure when somebody is a rock star author or the numbers sound good as part of a promotional effort. That reluctance to talk about numbers carries with it an implied “Don’t talk about this” that I’ve never really understood.
When you see a novel on the shelf in a bookstore, let alone several novels by the same author, you can easily get the impression that they made a lot of money on that, but the reality is that most writers don’t quit their day jobs. (I haven’t quit mine, but it has the virtue of being very flexible.) The question of what writers can earn or how much they sell gets even murkier when we talk about self-publishing, as that market is changing so rapidly.
It’s hard to know what to expect. People never really give you a number or a goal. And that frustrates me. I knew from the start that Good Intentions wasn’t likely to fly with traditional publishing. It doesn’t fit into neat marketing categories and it’s much longer than the usual first book for a new author. I didn’t like the things I would’ve had to do to chop it down to something a publisher would consider. When I was first deciding whether or not to self-publish it, a writer friend told me, “Even if you only sell 12 copies, that’s 12 readers you wouldn’t have if you didn’t publish.”
That resonated with me. I wrote a story, wanted people to read it, and it would be nice if they paid me something. Anything. Just on principle. Sounded reasonable to me. “I would like to make enough to pay the phone bill this month,” is a reasonable first goal, or maybe the rent, or whatever. But again, people don’t really put that into context by giving you realistic numbers.
The market has changed dramatically since I first got into it. I started out with an online following that was ready to give my stuff a little support, and it took off from there. And then, as with every book, there’s a huge matter of luck at play. But it can happen. I’m no genius, I have no skill at marketing, and yet I’ve pulled this off. It’s not realistic to say other people can’t do as well or better. Many people have done better.
But it frustrates me that people don’t talk about their numbers, so here are mine. I’m posting numbers of units sold (not given away) rather than using terms of income as Annie has done for my own reasons (plus I’ve signed a confidentiality agreement or two). Still, it’s not hard to ballpark that income if you’re really interested.
Warning: I have basically zero business training.
My numbers are drawn mostly from Kindle sales in the US, UK, German and Canadian markets. I have sold a little in the other markets, but not so much that I felt like I should include them all. (I am decidedly not big in Japan.) Print-on-demand sales are likewise a relative trickle, and so they aren’t included.
2015 gets fuzzy, since Poor Man’s Fight and Rich Man’s War came under the Skyscape label midway through the year (and added audio versions of both). I’ve included all those numbers as a lump sum for 2015 without breaking down categories or whatever. Similarly, 2015 saw the release of Audible versions of my other books, and I’ve added those in, whether they were picked up via subscription selections or a la carte sales. Also, I don’t have complete info yet on December Kindle sales and 4th quarter Audible sales, so again, take 2015 with a grain of salt.
Good Intentions came out in June 2011. Sales to date: 29,056.
Poor Man’s Fight came out in late January 2013. Sales to date: 55,836.
Natural Consequences came out in August 2013. Sales to date: 16,238.
Days of High Adventure (a novella) came out in April 2014. Sales to date: 11,277.
Rich Man’s War came out in late July 2014. Sales to date: 25,020.
Life in Shadows came out in December 2015. Apparently it sold exactly 2500 copies that month. I’m told by knowledgeable people that this is pretty good for an indie release in December.
A couple of graphs by year, if you’re the visual type:
And if you’re super curious about income, again, I can give you a ballpark for the self-published stuff, at least. (Again, 2015 gets wonky and partly confidential. It hasn’t been the best year, but I didn’t put anything new out until the last month of the year, either…but the audio for GI & NC have done pretty damn well.) My books have all sold for either $2.99 or $3.99. The vendor (Amazon) gets 30% of those royalties; I get the other 70%. From there, I sock away 35% for taxes. So to make a long story short, you can assume I make $1.36 per sale (using the $2.99 base) and multiply from there.
That doesn’t account for business expenses or things like the money from Poor Man’s Fight that was donated to the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America in 2014 (probably the thing I’m proudest of out of all of this). The numbers also don’t really reflect things that you might see in a more detailed breakdown, like the fact that the “tail” on my books seems to have shrunk sharply starting about the time Rich Man’s War came out. I don’t know if that’s a market-wide phenomenon or what. Mostly I felt like a quick snapshot was enough to share.
Overall, I feel incredibly fortunate. People want to read my stories. Past that, every other measure of success is in the eye of the beholder. (Try to stay behind the beholder. All the eyes are bad news, but that big one over the mouth is such a pain…)
UPDATES:
All of my work is now available on Kindle Unlimited! That means my stuff is exclusive to Kindle, at least for now, but it turns out there’s a reason why my numbers posted above don’t include non-Kindle formats. Turns out I never sold much on Smashwords. I’m gonna give KU the standard three-month run and then maybe I’ll renew or maybe I’ll expand into other carriers again. Seems to have been a smart decision so far. We’ll see how it goes!
Dead Man’s Debt, the third book in Poor Man’s Fight…is not ready for any announcements. Sorry about that. I hope to have news soon. Very soon. Hang in there.
Life in Shadows is in production with Audible, and Tess Irondale is on board once again! If you enjoyed her narration, you’ll be glad to know she has performed more work for Audible besides my stuff. Apparently it includes even more urban fantasy set in Seattle. Honestly, I could listen to her read the phone book.
Book Three for Good Intentions is underway! I’m up past the 20,000-word mark. This book kicks off during the holidays following Natural Consequences and moves straight into the next semester of school. Book Three (as yet untitled) will build off of some of the events and characters from Life in Shadows and the other previous books. Also, Taylor is back for this one. Promise. 🙂
I haven’t seen schedules yet, but I’ll be a panelist at Norwescon again this year and maybe even doing a panel at Emerald City Comic Con!
Take care, and thank you so much for reading!
Is there going to be more for the the Alex Carlisle series?
Yes, see above:
“Book Three for Good Intentions is underway! I’m up past the 20,000-word mark. “
Dude, I’m a trucker. I buy and listen to 4-6 books a month. I really enjoyed the Good Intentions series. Keep it up. Sexy supernatural babes who make you hotter in the process? Sign me up!
I couldn’t help but note Jason & Alex gamer cameos in the High Adventure one-shot.
Are you bringing Eric & Amanda into the series at some point?
(because THAT would be amazing!)
Jake, I don’t want to get your hopes up, so I’ll say that I have no such plans as yet. It’s possible, as they plainly exist in the same universe. If and when an idea hits, I’ll go with it. My default answer, though, is to say you probably shouldn’t get those particular hopes up. Sorry.
good job on the 20,000 word mark. but i have a stupid question for Alex. After the fight in the cemetery, Alex decided to learn kungfu with Drew, and then in his college he added another class for First Aid. Later, just before entering Hell he leveled up massively in martial skills but conceded that the body is not the same. Now, did he do any regular work out to make sure that he can do better in a fight that he must realize will come one way or another?
He’s certainly working out regularly since book two. (Sigh, I guess I spoiled part of the end of book two…yes, the main character is still alive, folks…) I’m not sure how much of a point I’ll make of that in book three, but I’ll definitely make it clear that he’s been hitting the gym.
The thing is, Alex may take some kung fu lessons or whatnot, but he isn’t really going to become a martial “artist.” That works for other characters (Drew, obviously), but I think he’s got a different mindset and a different feel to his approach to violence.
Thanks so much for putting your other books on KU! When I finished the two “Poor Man’s Fight” books, besides wishing you’d hurry up and publish the third one, I wanted to read your other books 🙂 I’m still looking forward to PMF #3 🙂
Any chance alex is ever gonna learn some spells/magic, i would be i i was him, it’s not like he can get any deeper into the supernatural world and he needs every advantage he can get
I don’t see Alex learning magic specifically, since I feel talents like that should be specific to characters rather than the sort of thing where everyone cross-trains. However, he’s certainly learning tricks to help him navigate the supernatural world as a (relative) mundane. “Life in Shadows” shows a little of this.
Wow thank you for the transparency there, I’ve always been kind of confused/annoyed with how secretive some industries are as to actual numbers (the other big one is the MMO subscriber/active player one). I guess in the end it’s all marketing that keeps people from being honest since it isn’t a requirement (the playing field will never be level there).
VERY excited about more Alex and company. I do like the Tanner stuff a lot, but if I had to choose I’d go angels and demons over space ships and corporate espionage 😛
I still think your books are rather dramatically underpriced. Looking at some of the other ‘indie’ urban fantasy series I’ve read (Alex Verus, Sandman Slim, Imp series, Annie Bellet’s stuff) you’re at half price or less.
Come on, man, your books are as good or better than anything else on the market! You should be rewarded equivalently, at least.
Really looking forward to both new titles. As always, day one purchases.
I gotta go with the whole underpriced thing. Listened to Poor Man’s Fight on Audible, swept up the rest of your work and was surprised to see the cost per audiobook was LESS than the cost of a credit, and they weren’t even on sale.
I’m guessing this is some kind “indie publisher” thing? Because after Poor Man’s fight I’d have paid the credit… (Do you get paid more if people pay with credits?)
Liked them all although Good Intentions and Natural Consequences aren’t my normal commute listening
I’ll be in your 2016 numbers….. Hope a lot of other people will too.
So it turns out I have no control over the pricing on the audiobooks. Skyscape (the Amazon Publishing imprint) handles the pricing on Poor Man’s Fight and Rich Man’s War. Honestly, I think they know best as to what price moves ebooks and audio, but regardless, those are out of my hands. Audible controls pricing on all the other audiobooks. I couldn’t tell you about subscription credits and how they stack up if something is less than a full credit and I can’t get into specifics about the monetary stuff but yes, a cut gets attributed to me either way. It’s totally a fair deal for me.
I can tell you, though, that I am pretty damn happy with the money I made with Audible off of GI & NC. Those audiobooks moved much better than anyone expected, especially me. Hell, I was just happy that Audible wanted to do audio versions of them at all. GI held the #1 spot in audio urban fantasy on Amazon for like a week & kicked around in the top ten for a good long while before & after hitting that height, and NC wasn’t far behind in ranking. Nothing to retire on, mind you, but as audiobook money goes it’s pretty good! So whatever Audible has chosen to do, I’m happy to say they did it right!
The only pricing I really control are ebooks & paperbacks of the GI line. I’m happy to keep them at a price point that will keep them moving, but it’ll probably ratchet up a little bit with the next book, at least.
Looking forward to Dead Man’s debt alot, wish I could say the same for book 3 of good intentions,
loved the first one, but unless theres serious consequences for the actions of book 2 I think I’m going to pass, long and short of it is simply the fact you make such a huge deal of Alex dying in relation to all the betrayals hes suffered from wives/lovers over the centuries, yet hes magically ok when Lorelei does it?
I raged real hard and it turned me, and the people I recommended the series to, off, unfortunately at that point Alex comes off as gutless and unwilling to stand up for himself for the principles hes stated matter to him. I can deal with the betrayal bit, just cant deal with him brushing it off, totally killed his character and was a complete 180 on the series and the massive buildup you’ve done on his background, That and he basically became a secondary character in that book in regards to the Rachel and Lorelei
*Gasp* Someone Is Wrong On The Internet! I must leap into battle.
A) Alex was already “sleeping around”
B) Alex already allowed female lovers and admitted to being hypocritical about male lovers
C) She did it to ESCAPE FROM THE EVIL AND SAVE HIS LIFE
D) Also sex demon, not exactly a normal person or relationship
E) He was only ‘cheated on’ in a couple of his previous lives and most of the time that wasn’t related to him dying.
F) Did I mention hypocrisy yet?
Reread the book please, she didnt need to sleep with anyone to escape, which she explicitly stated, she did it because she wanted to, not because she needed to, to escape. As for sleeping around, he did not originally start with multiple partners, he was pushed into it by Lorelei.
And yes its a bit of hypocrisy when related to how he feels about it, but at the end of the day, hypocrisy or not, it was a part of his personality that the author did a complete 180 on. As for previous lives…… your right it may not have been 100% correlation between the cheating and his death, but it was certainly a factor in all of them, from the piano player to the woman in the crusades, it was always a factor.
Well stated. I loved both books, but I feel the same way with regards to Alex. I’d like to add that I found it heinous that Rachel didn’t even put up a token protest to Lorelei cheating on Alex right in front of her.
your books where the first ones I have ever bought off audible and I must say wow. I bought them back in October/November and I am upset it took me so long to find out about them. I am looking forward to book 3 in both series. Thanks for the excellent novels and please keep them coming.
I had to link your story over at The Passive Voice on Hugh Howey’s post about traditional verses self publishers. Your tale is a great example of one side of the industry.
http://www.thepassivevoice.com/2016/02/my-bias-again/
Continue with your success and hurry up on the sequels!
Flattered you’d think to do this. Thanks!
i really like your books, they were recommended to me on audible and as soon as i read Good Intentions i had to get the rest. that being said i like audio books and i was wondering if you were going to release an audio book version along side the book releases or do we have to wait like life in shadows?
Hi Michael,
Not sure if I understand your question, so I’ll give a shotgun approach here in hopes I answer your concern: Everything so far either has or will have an audiobook edition. Life in Shadows has a preorder option up now for its March 15th release, so it’ll be available very soon.
Dead Man’s Debt will have an audio edition. The contract is already signed there. It’s not coming out simultaneously, though, because I’d rather not make everyone wait for the production there when my audience is primarily ebook readers. I’m very excited that we’ll have all three books done on audio, but again, waiting for that to be done seemed unnecessary given that people have been waiting for this book for a while now.
Hello,
Just a general request. Could you please date stamp your Blog posts. If they are all ready dated I am not seeing it.
As an extremely satisfied reader of your books, I would happily pay at least twice the price for any further Kindle books you release. I would have to say that the Good Intentions series are the most captivating books I have read in the last 30 years of rabid Sci-Fi and Fantasy consumption. I have all the audio books and I must agree with you on the pure sex appeal of Tess Irondale’s voice…yum.
Very glad to hear that Alex and Co are going to have further adventures! Something about the loving, open relationships you have created for them does my heart good. Really excellent work, thank you.
I have a much better question than the above silliness about outrage and cheating: Why the hell does Alex order a steak ‘medium well’ in the first book? Does he just hate good food? Definitely the least believable part of that entire book.
*sigh* Look, man: one of the things you have to do as an author is to make sure your lead character is at least a LITTLE different from you in real life. You have to create some flaws. I mean I don’t want anyone thinking that Alex is just some silly author avatar, y’know?
I don’t see the concern, surely no one could ever imagine that the main character shares any attributes whatsoever with the author.
. . .
Also what’s with everyone always opening portals to Hell? Wouldn’t a portal to Heaven be a way nicer way to spend an evening?
Wellll…I’ll admit that I DID once work as a file clerk for a law firm and that I rode a motorcycle for many years. Talking about the rest of it might violate that NDA I had to sign in blood…
As for Heaven being a nicer place, that’s entirely true, but the whole thing with customs is a complete pain. I mean at least with the other option they really couldn’t care less what you smuggle in or out.
I don’t normally post anywhere, but I wanted to say that I picked up Poor Man’s Fight and was blown away. You’re one of two authors that I’ve bought every work you’ve listed on Amazon, and the moment a pre-order goes up I snap-buy.
You’re doing great work, and PMF and RMW should get a lot more press for how amazing they are.
Thank you so much!
Believe it or not, this isn’t the sort of thing authors hear that often until & unless they hit the Stephen King/Neil Gaiman/JK Rowling rock-star level. I’m super flattered to see a comment like this. Don’t ever feel like you shouldn’t tell other authors the same sort of thing when you feel that way about their work. It really does mean a lot.
Thanks again!
Sir Kay,
A recent convert, picked up your book Good Intentions based on your disclaimer. I said to myself anyone who takes themselves at this level of seriousness is my kind of writer! I went in expecting mostly levity and a bit of sexiness, I got a story I find myself invested in with characters I care about much further than your physical descriptions of them. I just finished Natural Consequences last night on a flight from Washington DC to Seattle, (where I live) by the way love your setting obviously, and I will admit I paused it a couple times simply because I didn’t want it to end.
All that to say, after those two books, I will be listening to your others for sure as they are already purchased, and I am chomping at the bit for Good Intentions III. But as for the numbers you posted, I really appreciate that, myself and three other friends have our own universe and company to support its creation and looking at our own release of the books and then the accompanying video game, you give great perspective as right now we also keep our day jobs (being software engineers).
Lastly a question for you. Given that you have a level of success here, do you aspire to make this your main job or do you enjoy your normal job as well? I can say that once we take off I will have programming to do in our company so its not like I really switch vocations as much as add to it. How much volatility do you see in your revenue from your books? If you managed it from a purely business perspective do you think you could go further? Any pointers, as general or specific as you like, as someone who started self published and now has a serious following your perspective is invaluable.
Thanks for your awesome books! Keep on writing!
Amarus
Amarus,
I don’t want to get into details about my day job (I have good reasons), but I’ll say this: the educational requirements were a big investment, the job involves a high degree of personal and social responsibility…and the pay is famously terrible. It also involves a high burnout factor. I’ve stuck with it longer than a lot of people, but yes, I would very much prefer to make writing my main/full-time career. Absolutely. I’m lucky, though, in that my day job offers a LOT of flexibility, so I can drift in and out of it pretty easily. I don’t have to completely commit to one or the other.
There’s definitely a lot of volatility. Indie publishing is still an emerging field, people are still finding their way around and setting standards, and even in traditional publishing you never know when things will hit a downturn for a given author. I think I could go further if I had a better head for business, yes, ’cause I’m honestly pretty ignorant. Mostly I’m just happy people are reading my stuff. The fact that it pays bills is glorious, but I’m reluctant to completely pull the trigger and walk away from the day job entirely. It just doesn’t seem like a safe bet. At least not yet. 🙂
Good luck with your own projects!
Sir Kay,
Thanks for the insight, I wasn’t sure how you would answer but I got the feeling that you at least derive a good sense of satisfaction from your day job, which is awesome. And that educational investment, I get that, I’m sure many people nowadays get that. In fact all that training into doing something well and then deciding to go off the rails is why I ask all these questions, its a daunting prospect. We have people asking us to release and looking for teasers and advanced copies (which we both know in indie publishing you get like 6 total =P) but you know how it is wanting to make sure things are right, you only get one first impression.. You’re on the mark though, it is a good feeling when people want to read, to be involved, but I know a fear of mine is doing things the way we want and letting people down. Ever wonder about that, or do you just chug along without a care?
I started Poor Man’s Fight this morning, and so far I am loving it, your personal prose is very entertaining to me. Can’t wait for Life In Shadows to drop on audible, I know they are short stories but I love the universe you have created in my backyard, makes me smile when I walk around places you have mentioned. Not to mention you were dead on about Tess Irondale’s voice she knows how to bring out the characters.
Thanks for the encouragement and for taking the time to respond, have fun at your Con appearances!
Cheers,
Amarus
I don’t know if I chug along without a care, but I definitely follow my own instincts until and unless I get contrary input from an expert source or obvious shifts in data.
This release already has me wondering if I might’ve debuted this book with a bit more of a splash if I’d set a release date and preorders and such, particularly if I’d coordinated it so paperback & audio came out all at once. The thing is, it also felt like this book has been a long time coming, so I felt better about not making fans wait. That’s one of the joys of being an indie author. You get to do what you want.
Well just that fact that you do take input from people you trust and data you collect is interesting. We have shifted things around to flow better than what was our original design, its hilarious to think how many iterations of the same story we have had, I bet you have something similar going on as well.
My 2 cents, while not worth more than 2 cents, is that anticipation surely wets the appetite, setting release dates is a big deal, especially for a sequel, people are looking for it. I know I have convinced people to read the original before the new one came out, for many different series. Also it lets fans know that you haven’t forgotten about them and that you are working on completion. Downside is that it sets a deadline for you, and with day jobs being a thing that is sometimes rough and the idea of pushing a deadline back is anathema to me and I am sure fans would be understanding, but also frustrated. So its certainly a double edged sword. I would probably announce mine after it was past first edit.
As for pre-orders I am not a huge fan, neither in terms of selling them or purchasing them, but the fact remains that it has become part of the business, they are numbers you can show as a strong early release and they tend to please more financially minded backers, but with us indie folks we can usually do as we please. I noticed you had a pre-order set for the audible version of Life In Shadows, was that your choice or was that an amazon thing, because I know they do that.
Lastly, I finished Poor Man’s Fight over the weekend, holy crap Tanner Malone is freaking awesome! Also, I appreciate all of the subtle (and not so subtle) nods and references to history, I’m a huge history buff. I enjoyed the fantastic and lucky nature of his abilities but also the realistic way he deals with it, and I love his smarts how he navigates his relationships, good and bad. All a round a likable and character you can empathize with. Already started Rich Man’s War, wish I could slow myself down…but I can’t.
Hi Elliott,
To start off with, thank you so, so much for the gift you have given me, and the world, by sharing your writing. I have intensely enjoyed almost everything you’ve written, and greatly look forward to reading more from you in future, particularly about Alex and Tanner (& co.s) , but also anything else you decide to release.
I’m glad to see that your writing is also financially rewarding for you, since a talent such as yours should be so, but I’m sure we all know that isn’t always the case.
I have to confess I’m slightly disappointed about the Kindle Unlimited decision, especially since this means I now can’t buy Days of High Adventure anytime soon (serves me right for dawdling). I guess I shall just have to wait for it to be available again (and hope you don’t do any other little digital-only releases anytime soon ala LiS).
Do you think Smashwords would do better if you promoted it more? None of your tweets or promotions for Life in Shadows ever linked to there that I noticed, and your books’ pages on your website only linked to Amazon. The wait between Life in Shadows going up on Amazon and Smashwords was also painful (and I’m quite a digital-purchase luddite, so getting me to buy digital at all is an achievement, I’m all about those physical copies). If it launched at the same time perhaps it would have done better.
Anyway thanks again for all your writings, and looking forward to Dead Man’s Debt coming to paperback! I’ll soon have five physical books of yours on my shelf!
So it turns out I never did much active promotion until the last year or so, and that pattern between Smashwords & Amazon was always there. In terms of raw sales numbers, going exclusive with Amazon (via Kindle Select & Kindle Unlimited) was a no-brainer…but it would’ve been a no-brainer a couple years back if all I cared about was sales. Again, I didn’t want to punish people for buying some platform other than Kindles. That said, as time went on, the non-Amazon sales got thinner and thinner, and recently a reader asked me if I’d be going with KU because it helped him out a lot. Turns out he’s on a fixed income, and the KU subscription model dramatically improved the amount of reading he could do. I have no idea how common that is, but that request had an impact on me.
There are pros and cons to both approaches. Again, it’s an experiment for now, and I don’t know how long it’ll be in play.
Also, there will be print versions of Days and Life before too long. Days is already paid for in terms of formatting & such, but I fell off that to get other projects done. I intend to get on that as soon as the conventions coming up in the next couple weeks are behind me (and behind my cover artist).
Thanks for replying, it’s enlightening to hear some of your rationale. It’s mainly just a shame that KU requires exclusivity. And that Amazon is so dominant. Doesn’t bode that well for the future of publishing.
Also, wow, that’s great news to hear about Days and Life, thanks! Looking forward to adding those to my shelves as well. You’re going to be one of the most represented authors up there!